One sometimes wonders how the scientists most reviled by the denial industry are bearing up under the onslaught. Michael Mann is one of them, so I was interested to listen to him being interviewed by Chris Mooney on a recent Point of Inquiry podcast. Here is a summary of some of Mann’s responses (not an accurate transcript, though mostly in his words):
On the science:
The bottom line is the basic physics and chemistry of the greenhouse effect. Observation that the globe is warming and that the warming is unusual in the long term context fits what the basic physics and chemistry says. After decades of work by thousands of scientists round the world pursuing every lead – thinking of all the possible different explanations of the phenomena they observe – there is literally no evidence that calls into question the basic radiative properties of greenhouse gases. You increase greenhouse gas concentrations, you will warm the atmosphere. Questioning that basic reality is almost like questioning the spherical nature of the Earth.
What scientists actually spend time debating and pursuing are issues like feedbacks – the processes that might amplify or diminish that warming. There are open questions relating to such matters as clouds, El Ninos, hurricanes, and so on, which are being actively pursued. But on the basic issue – the scientific community moved on from that question decades ago.
On the strategy of attacks on the science:
The critiques almost never actually discredit a line of evidence or a basic conclusion. They take some small technical part of an analysis, try to manufacture a controversy about that to essentially discredit the work by finding some small potential flaw with one part of an analysis.
On the hockey stick:
There are more than a dozen reconstructions; every one of them comes to the same conclusion as our decade-old work that the recent warming is anomalous in at least 1000 years. Our attackers never want to look at the big picture, never want to look at whether they have any impact on the bottom-line conclusions, because they know that they don’t.
Even if they had been successful in taking down the hockey stick, which they haven’t been, it still wouldn’t amount to undermining the central case for the science.
On concealing data:
All of our data was available in the public domain and any claim to the contrary was dishonest. The question of making codes public is different and is not considered required as general practice. However I and my collaborators have made a decision to put every scrap of code as well as every scrap of data in public domain at the time we publish a paper. We’ve gone beyond what the standards of the community are.
On Phil Jones request to delete emails:
It was an email he wrote in the heat of the moment. He was under attack. Keep in mind this guy received something like 40 freedom of information demands over a weekend. He was being harassed intentionally and the freedom of information demands that were being made were for materials that CRU legally could not even distribute. These were frivolous demands. Under that sort of harassment people sometimes say foolish things – we certainly didn’t delete any emails and I don’t think he did himself
On the “trick”:
This is a good example of how those working to make mischief can take a term that they probably fully know is perfectly innocent in scientific lingo, but exploiting the fact that it sounds very different to a non-technical person. It shows the disingenuousness of those leading the attack. They intentionally misrepresent words and phrases cherry-picked from thousands of emails in a cynical attempt to distort the scientists’ views and cast aspersions on a scientific discipline.
On fighting back:
The idea that scientists under siege should unilaterally disarm, give in to the sometimes criminal attacks of the anti-science forces looking to discredit them and their science, not stick up for their science and their colleagues, not fight back against these criminal efforts to misrepresent them and to impugn their integrity – it would be terribly misplaced if scientists were not to do all they can to fight back
On the difficulties:
Our detractors are extremely well funded, extremely well organised, they have had an attack infrastructure for decades. They developed it during the tobacco wars, they honed it further in other efforts to attack science that industry or other special interests find inconvenient. So they have a very well honed, well funded, organised machine that they are bringing to bear in their attack now against climate science. It’s like a marine in a battle with a cub scout when it comes to the scientists defending themselves. We don’t have the resources, the experience: we haven’t been trained, we’re not public relations experts, lawyers, lobbyists, we’re scientists. It’s a classic example of asymmetric warfare.
Many of us didn’t believe it would come to this – the scientific case for the reality of human-caused climate change has been clear now for several years, though there is much we have still to learn. Many of us thought, perhaps somewhat naively that in the end science would carry the day, that the strength of the scientific consensus would be enough. I wasn’t so sure. But what we all underestimated was the degree, the depth of dishonesty, the dirtiness, and cynicism to which the climate change denial movement would be willing to stoop to advance their agenda.
*****************
A stout defence from Michael Mann. What he wasn’t asked and doesn’t say is how high the stakes are. But anyone who has taken the trouble to understand the basic science knows they are very high indeed. The attack on climate science is an attack on all humanity. Not one for which the perpetrators are likely to be called to account, and perhaps it won’t really matter that they’re not. What matters more is that they call off the campaign, though one suspects that even if they wanted to, the forces they have loosed have so committed themselves that they will not heed any call to come to heel. Meanwhile those of us who are not climate scientists but can see the danger we are in must offer strong support to the science and opposition to the insidious campaign of denial.
Related posts:
- Beatin’ the heat
- Misuse of political office: science under attack
- Economist says climate science deserves praise
- Defending the indefensible: Guardian responds to RC critics
- Analysis of stolen CRU emails by NZ blogger shows tawdry manipulation of facts – Poneke’s credibility now in tatters




{ 95 comments… read them below or add one }
← Previous Comments
Sorry Checkzor, I asked you not to comment again on this thread. Bryan
Rob, deleting this made your immediate response superfluous, so I’ve removed it – but left the more general observation that followed. Bryan
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From the varying tone, vocabulary and sentence structure in “his” posts, I believe the “Dr. Checkzor” pseudonym is used by several people – as also seemed to be the case with the late, unlamented “Socrates”.
I expect we are seeing a web-enabled denialist version of the old “boiler room” stock market scam. Anyone else seen the movie?
http://movies.nytimes.com/movi.....A9669C8B63
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I thought the Doctor – even if his name be Legion – wasn’t allowed to post on this thread anymore?
(My amazing psychic powers will obviate the necessity to break your suspension yet again by responding, Doctor[/s], by pre-emptively squealing on your behalf; yes, this is an outrageous call to stifle your ‘free speech’ – on someone else’s forum, where they’re being rather more tolerant than your behaviour merits – and quite possibly to ‘drown you in data’, which doesn’t actually follow logically, but that’s apparently just fine in the parallel looniverse!)
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And on the subject of scientists coming out and publicly defending themselves, I was pleased to see yesterday’s announcement from the head of the CSIRO here in Oz -
The complete article is available here – http://www.abc.net.au/news/sto.....845519.htm
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Yes, the Institute of Irony as Tim Lambert from Deltoid put it. Calls for transparency and then refuses to say who wrote that report. Doh!.
Then there’s the memory hole:
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoi.....y_hole.php
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“Let’s imagine, just for a minute that the alarmists are wrong. We will re-engineer our society at great cost, and with almost certain poverty for millions of people in the short term.” – DrC
Hmmmmm……..aren’t you sounding a tad alarmist?. And you can save the crocodile tears, there’s billions of the world’s population living in poverty now. Why the sudden concern?.
Now let’s consider the alternative, let’s say the climate scientists are right, the Earth is warming and given the current state of knowledge it is going to accelerate further. If we do nothing to ameliorate the threat we will have doomed ourselves and future generations to misery and a probable collapse of global civilization this century.
I know which course of action I would choose.
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Bill, you were correct. I was a bit late finding out what had happened. Fixed now.
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Hey guys,
Anybody noticed how much the sceptics’ language has changed during the past 12 months. There’s a certain aggression now that used to not be there.
In trying to understand the denialist phenomenon I looked to the works of Kubler Ross, she’s famous for her understanding of the 5 stages of grief that people go through when confronted by something that’s too big for the psychology to handle:
1. Denial – “I feel fine.”
2. Anger – “Why me? It’s not fair!”; “How can this happen to me?”; “Who is to blame?”
3. Bargaining – “Just let me live to see my children graduate.”; “I’ll do anything for a few more years.”; “I will give my life savings if…”
4. Depression – “I’m so sad, why bother with anything?”; “I’m going to die… What’s the point?”; “I miss my loved one, why go on?”
5. Acceptance – “It’s going to be okay.”; “I can’t fight it, I may as well prepare for it.”
I do believe right now we are mostly experiencing Stage 2.
To expand upon these see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kübler-Ross_model
Note that although Kubler Ross was giving insight into personal trauma, like death of a loved one, she had the insight to understand these processes in the context of everyday life, such as when an ardent sports fan sees, with disbelief, his / her team lose the grand final.
It could be that the social sciences offer as much as the hard sciences in the understanding of the global climate issue and the human response to it.
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Why on earth does the transition to a low-carbon economy mean ‘certain poverty for millions in the short term’? We have to do it at some point anyway – the oil will run out after all, argue about the date as you will – and the sooner we make the transition the less abrupt and disruptive it is likely to be.
It seems to me that this bizarre alarmism is a transparent – and implausible – attempt to ‘balance’ potential disasters; if you can psych yourself into believing that making a transition in an economy is every bit as terrifying a prospect as baking a planet then you can repress the obvious dissonance inherent in effectively barracking for a potential doomsday!
It seems to me that what is really of passionate importance to many in the deniosphere is that the ‘Greenies’ not be right! Rather more important than the potential future of their grandchildren, even. Amusingly, this means that they’re even prepared to cast ‘Science’ as left wing (! – how many great conservatives must be spinning in their graves? perhaps we could use them to drive turbines?) because they cannot hope to undermine its claims by traditional rationalist methods, and so resort to the comfortable subjectivities of politics.
It is indeed remarkable that the denialist movement is now so dominated by the far-Right, not traditionally noted for it’s enthusiasm for the rights of the poor, other than their right to be lifted from poverty by the magic of the invisible hand. And only by the invisible hand – pesky things like unions and regulations just get in the way, interfering with the beauty of the one true idea, and must be ruthlessly crushed accordingly. Never mind out own first world national histories…
Perhaps a compromise could be reached here? Why don’t you folks campaign for decentralised low-carbon power systems (and associated technology) to be set-up and distributed throughout the third world, particularly where industrial infrastructure is sparse indeed? These are cheaper, more flexible and faster to set up – and much more inherently democratic – than traditional Western power infrastructure. Think of it; Africa, say, is a sunny place where all that PV could be put to better use than in higher latitudes.
In fact, why don’t you put your money where your mouths are – don’t just lobby for it; donate to it! Demand to pay more taxes and increase Foreign Aid!
(The sound you’re not hearing is me holding my breath.)
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Interesting chain you present there.
Predicts the alarmist reaction to the CRU emails fairly well,
Stage 1, denial:
http://hot-topic.co.nz/dont-le.....our-heart/
Stage 2, anger:
http://hot-topic.co.nz/analysi.....n-tatters/
Hmmm, or perhaps the truth is that trying to disregard people who disagree with you on the basis it is a primitive reaction to hearing bad news is neither fair nor intelligent. Maybe it is you, Chris the Taswegian, that are exhibiting an example of denial.
You see, you can not accept the fact that intelligent people disagree with you for fair reasons, so you need to pretend they are primitive and that the only reason they disagree with you is because they can not handle the truth with the strength that you can.
If you can not agree that neither side of the debate truley knows the answer and that either side of the debate could be right then you can not have a well considered debate.
“Ignorance, which thinks it knows what it does not, must surely be ignorance most culpable” – Socrates
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We can have all the imaginary alternatives we want but it wont change the real world.
What we have in the real world is a range of potential paths forward. What this nation has control over is our own domestic policy. We should then set policy with a range of future possibilities in mind.
Q. What if climate models underestimate future warming?
A. We have the framework of an ETS. We can continue to participate in UN negotiations. We can ramp up our ETS to match our UN commitments.
Q. What if warming occurs but is moderate?
A. Same as above but ramp up ETS to match our likely lower UN commitments.
Q. What if climate change does not occur?
A. The current ETS is still required in the next ten years to prepare our economy in case this doesn’t happen. Market intervention can occur as this is anticipated and eventually the ETS can be scrapped without huge financial costs.
Q. Should we invest in renewable energy?
A. Yes.
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“We can ramp up our ETS to match our UN commitments.”
great,
except for a very long (ie. several decades) lag between when emissions are cut and the physical consequences of those emissions are realised, as previously discussed ad nauseum.
The current ETS will do nothing to prepare our economy for anything as long as it subsidises the people in a position to make useful changes to not change at all.
“What this nation has control over is our own domestic policy.”
And it’s reputation for strong moral action and policy leadership on a range of international issues (women’s suffrage, apartheid, whaling (til now), nuclear free…). that could maybe be used to persuade our allies to stronger action.
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So we should have an ETS in anticipation of tougher commitments? What happens if the UN process fails and the globe does not reduce emissions?
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We’re screwed.
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A comment on comments. As I’ve said before (repeatedly), I don’t like censorship, and prefer to allow Hot Topic’s readers to engage in robust discussion (preferably polite). However, there are some commenters who go off topic, provoke, or are gratuitously rude, and who produce so much noise that the “signal” in any discussion gets lost. Dr Checkzor is a fine example, Roger Dewhurst was another. Some Hot Topic regulars also find it hard to avoid rising to the bait. For them, don’t feed the troll is the best policy… A day or so ago, whilst I was away from my desk (trying to prevent a family budget meltdown as wife and children shopped around Wellington), Bryan asked Dr Checkzor to refrain from further comments on this thread. He didn’t observe that polite request, and so his comments are now automatically sent to the moderation queue so that I can decide whether or not they’re worth publishing.
I like comments and discussion to centre on the subject of the post they relate to. But what happens if you want to discuss something that’s off-topic? A while ago I experimented with a Hot Topic forum, but after an initial flourish of interest it attracted little further attention and so I let it drop. I’m willing to experiment with that again, if there’s enough interest, but for the time being I’m happy to have occasional open threads where you can discuss anything you fancy. HT regulars: please let me know your thoughts.
Dr Checkzor: you’ll come off auto-moderation if you agree to those modest rules.
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Actually R2D2 – denial is not a primitive reaction. It is fairly normal human response to a threatening situation.
For that reason I fully empathise with denialists. In time I believe they will come around, they just need time. That’s my considered judgement.
Being in denial is not a statement of lack of intelligence. It’s worthwhile remembering that good old Albert Einstein refused to accept plate tectonics (continental drift theory) for some time, way after other scientists had come to the conclusion that the theory was valid.
It is perfectly reasonable for anybody to resist a theory that is being put, the difference on this occasion being that an awful lot may hang in the balance as the doubters slowly come on board. And in terms of science, it is a very small minority of experts who remain in a state of doubt.
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OK, Gareth
I respect your rules
Thanks for giving me the time on your blog
Regards
C
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Cheer up Gareth
Believe it or not, we are actually all on the same side.
It’s just how we achieve it is the question,
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Oops…
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We may already be screwed, if there is sufficient excess heat in the system to commit us to an ice-free world and an extra 70 metres of sea level rise.
No-one knows for sure, but the paleoclimate record is deeply troubling.
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Keeping within the spirit of this blog, which Gareth has graciously accepted my comments on. I’d like to repost my suggestions that one may find the IoP comments re Rasmus Benestad and his comments on “Hide the Decline”, I’d suggest we take a look at
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/41965
[Note - this is wihin the context of the current thread, I hope]
Benestad has replied to this article in the comments.
I am not going to try to editorialize the article or comments, but I would suggest that from comments #9 and beyond tells an interesting story.
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re: #63 Dr. Checkzor
There is no further information in the url you quote. There is no reference to the words attributed to Rasmus Benestad. Hopefully we no longer accept politicians who ” make their own reality”.
Bishop Hill asks(1) if “he (Rasmus) is really saying it is acceptable to remove evidence…” Rasmus Benestad replies (2)” No.” This is a direct quote written by Benestad and seems quite clear. If he said “No.” , the claims above about removing data is false. We now have proof theat someone is lying: either the IOP guy who had no part beyond giving the dupes their talking points or Rasmus Benested. Mr Gill come on down.
The misinformation about deletion is parroted in comments 20 and 27, but ( of course) with no attribution . No information, no proof.
The few comments 9 and below are just embarassing for Climate Audit and M&M&M. Yamal data was demanded when already in the auditors hot little hands; hardly transparent. With all the information the auditor proceeded to remove some trees from Yamal ( firewood for the Canadian winter?) and move trees from another geographic area into the Yamal group. With the data massaged, truncated, changed, cherrypicked and falsified CA was able to prove that Briffa was a lying crook who should be in jail.
The auditor’s massaging was, of course, detected immediately and the corrections made by qualified scientists made him look pretty inadequate.
I assume Checkzor means ” the Chech Zorro”, it could hardly mean ” a careful fact checker”.
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I for one vastly prefer respectful discussion and find that “robust” discussion leads to outbursts of anger that we regret later. I am guilty of this. If Dr Checkzor is resolved to abide by rules, then I think the discussion would be a lot more productive if responders would also be polite. I have had far more useful discussions over emails than I had in blogs where trading insults ruins any possibility of mutual understanding let alone agreement.
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Chris @ comment 66
Nicely put.. yet the matter of enough time remaining to effect adequate change in human behaviors etc..
On that front, as it were, for those among you willing to stomach strong silent (?) strategy allow me say there’s more than one way of skinning a cat.. Certainly in the USA, where things can only improve.
Since I have had more than my few comments already to this thread and out of time emailing this link in.. for which I’d welcome the scientists view of whether the “doming” mentioned already forms a part of ‘heat island’ observations or not..
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@bill March 16, 2010 at 3:59 pm
” Why on earth does the transition to a low-carbon economy mean ‘certain poverty for millions in the short term’? ”
You might want to read this article (which is one of many – just try Googling ‘Britain’s energy crisis”
Quote: “All that mattered was that we must meet a target set by the EU, which requires Britain within the next 12 years to generate 38 per cent of our electricity from ‘renewable’ energy sources.
At present, barely 1 per cent of this country’s power comes from the 2,000 wind turbines already built – less than the output of a single conventional power station.
That is why, in response to the EU’s requirements, the Government is today publishing its plans for a massive new drive to build thousands more turbines, at the staggering cost of £100 billion.
Here we are already into cloud-cuckoo land.
To comply with the EU’s wishes, we would actually need to build at least 30,000 turbines.
”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new.....unacy.html
Britain has no committed to a 30% reduction in emissions by 2020. The costs of this commitment are staggering.
Hundreds of billions of pounds, the likelihood of power blackouts, and “energy poverty” as British citizens struggle to keep themselves warm against the onslaught of overbearing energy prices.
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The scope for wind energy (a dilute energy source) to provide for a society that has been built upon concentrated fossil fuels has been overblown. The problem there is too much focus on ‘supply’ side solutions.
We don’t have the luxury of energy choice if we are providing for an energy system that is asymptotically growing. We would have to have them all.
But to be consistent, if we are to refer to wind energy as being heavily subsidised then we have to apply the same criteria and language to the nuclear plants that are suggested as alternative.
No nuclear plant has yet been built that covers its full costs, especially if decommissioning and waste management are incorporated.
Whether an ETS or a carbon tax is ultimately introduced, this will give a leg up to both wind and nuclear, the advocates of each will need to fight it out or leave it to the market as to which dominates the supply market.
For others the demand part of the energy equation may also finally be given much higher priority by these market forces.
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Checkzor, cool analysis by the likes of Nicholas Stern and others doesn’t agree that the costs will be staggering. It seems to be largely vested interests who complain about the costs. We have to see this through because of the imperative of climate change; it is defeatist to claim before we start that it will cost too much. Put a fair price on carbon and see what inventiveness and entrepeneurship will come up with. We’ll be surprised. As many have pointed out the US altered the direction of its economy almost overnight when war broke out, and it turned out to be to the benefit of that economy. And it’s not all down to wind in the UK – wave and tidal power are in the mix, with a new development reported here.
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Whilst I continue on this theme, I understand it is UK-centric but does bear relevance to the NZ market
In the Guardian, George Monbiot has come down hard on the solar feed-in tariff that allows owners of solar panels to sell their electricity into the grid at vastly inflated costs
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comm.....-in-tariff
The intro is particularly telling, as George Monbiot has been the darling of the Green movement until recently anyway
“Those who hate environmentalism have spent years looking for the definitive example of a great green rip-off. Finally it arrives, and nobody notices. The government is about to shift £8.6bn from the poor to the middle classes. It expects a loss on this scheme of £8.2bn, or 95%. Yet the media is silent. The opposition urges only that the scam should be expanded.”
I am not hearing anything from our politicians and policy makers on how the ETS will enable a low-carbon economy, and how much it will cost.
If anyone has anything to add I’d be really interested to hear your views.
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@Bryan
” It seems to be largely vested interests who complain about the costs. ”
I would argue that those with vested interests are the common folk who need to keep themselves warm in the British weather.
If renewables are so damned expensive and an immature technology, then I would argue that we really need to divert more R&D effort into bringing down the costs so that these become an affordable option in the medium term.
Running around like headless chooks worrying about climate change, trying to meet impossible short term targets, will simply price ourselves out of existence and offshore the remaining manufacturing jobs we have to China and India.
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Checkzor, Monbiot is not giving up on renewable energy, just claiming that sun isn’t the best source for the UK. He may be right, or he may be partly right, or he may be partly wrong. I sometimes find myself in disagreement with what he has to say. The Green movement as you call it is not a monolith. Regarding our ETS, in its present form it may well not enable a low-carbon economy. As the reality of climate change dawns on us we may find that we need to urgently couple it with direct carbon taxes and even some regulation. Hot Topic has many earlier posts on it such as this guest post. If you click on the ETS review tag at the bottom of the post you’ll see a great many more.
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Bryan,
The link to the guest post doesn’t work for me.
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I think I’ve fixed it now
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They’re not so damned expensive if carbon is priced as it should be. So far as lower income citizens are concerned there are ways in which governments can ensure that they’re not priced out of winter warmth. I don’t think it’s headless chookery to worry about climate change, as you’re aware. It’s inescapable in my book. The targets have to be relatively short term, because if they’re not we’ll be far too late to lower emissions. We’ve largely ignored the problem for twenty years, and haven’t much time to make up for those years. Meanwile China is getting on with manufacturing renewable energy products at a great rate and the west will be left behind if they don’t apply themselves to the task pdq.
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” Meanwhile China is getting on with manufacturing renewable energy products at a great rate ”
Yes, Bryan, you are correct.
China is burning NZ mined coal to build windmills for NZ so that we can pay many times the cost for our electricity at no net reduction in emissions whatsoever, when we could have burned that coal at home at a far less cost.
The readers of this blog might be interested in these comments by Daily Telegraph blogger James Delingpole, who has restated the interesting case where a steel works in the UK was closed down (minus 1200 jobs) and then another opened in India (plus 1200 jobs) with no net change in emissions whatsoever yet the UK taxpayer was saddled with a One Billion Pound cost for carbon credits.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/n.....get-angry/
I can understand while Roger Dewhurst was outed from this blog (thanks for the link Bryan).
Roger is a voice of reason in a room of madness.
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Dr Checkzor is correct in one respect, there is certainly an element of schizophrenia in the way both governments and individuals are reacting to climate change. But I am not sure what his / her solution is. From the above post, sounds like stick with coal?
The solar hot water system on my home was made in China, as was my solar pv system and the greenhouse gas payback period of those is not more than a four years.
But, again, it is our societal obsession with supply solutions that will make sure none of us wins in the long run.
If energy consumption keeps doubling each 30 years (current trend) then we are pretty well up s… creek without a paddle. The much-touted wind farms and biofuels and fuel cells… and so forth… will not be capable of matching that growing new demand, let alone ameliorate emissions from current fossil fuel usage.
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@Chris #78
Sorry, can’t seem to reply directly to your message
Believe it or not, I am in complete agreement re. your comments on supply based solutions.
I am staggered that we have these complicated ETS arrangements yet fail to realise that we have, in NZ, some of the worst insulated houses in the world. If we could only provide practical incentives to insulate and double-glaze our houses we may achieve a lot of our sustainability goals.
Just to confuse your stereotypes about me even further, you might be interested to hear that I agree with James Hansen in this video on two points. Namely, that (a) Cap and Trade won’t work, and (b) the CRU should have made all their data available.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBbjAQzjQZ8
Regards
(Mr) C
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Checkzor, I’ve said all I want to say. We obviously come at it from different perspectives. I suggest we let it rest at that. Delingpole of all people is hardly likely to affect my view of things.
I’ve done my best to respond to you politely, but if you are saying that Roger Dewhurst’s flailings represent reason in the madness which is Hot Topic, and that is why he was outed from here, it seems to me that you are sailing very close to the wind. Are you sure you accept Gareth’s conditions?
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# 63 “I assume Checkzor means ” the Chech Zorro”, it could hardly mean ” a careful fact checker”.”
I find Dr Checkzor’s comments (# 2) strike a familiar ring. Similar in form to ‘New to Denialism’, ‘Worthless Troll’s” aka Andy Skrase trolling OpenParachute
here
http://openparachute.wordpress.....imategate/
and here
http://openparachute.wordpress...../#comments
- just say’n.
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As far as I know I am respecting Gareth’s conditions. I am trying to open up an honest debate about possible tax and mitigation options. No one seems to have any numbers for me, but the UK story looks pretty desperate.
Of course, the theory is that I am a member of a “far-right denialist movement”, which is about as far fetched as it gets.
I have just finished reading “The Hockey Stick Illusion” by A W Montford –
http://bit.ly/aQkPCF
This book gets 23 5 star reviews on Amazon UK and is in the top 100 books on Amazon UK
If you are worried about Michael Mann’s reputation and the “well-funded denialist industry” then you might want to buy this book and write your own version of events.
Too bad that the CRUTape letters and HSI are now bestsellers.
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So are the Bible and Lord of the Rings, but that doesn’t make them true.
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Aha, Zorro unmasked!
Chances are, Richard, that Checkzor is just copy pasting from material fed to the denialist zombie hordes by their masters in the fossil fuel industry.
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66!
Looks like Dr C’s on a roll (only managed 41 last time).
I reckon he’ll do 80 next time.
Probably gets paid the same way…
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Rob @ #91,
That’s more to the point. Not a good idea to focus on the individual, there is a Checkzor in Australia, Canada, Italy… you name it. It’s a worldwide phenomenon.
URLs are dropped in all over the place, like quotes from the bible used to be. You can read anything in the blogosphere as you can with a bible.
It’s also a mistake to presume the Checkzor’s of this world are in the payee of the coal or oil lobbies. Most of them are not, just folks who are in that state of mind. We can’t ignore the worldwide phenomenon and it behoves us to try to understand what drives it. Dialectic debates do not generate this much heat, there is a powerful psychology at play.
That said, the thrust of the denialist arguments are very much engineered and paid for by well funded lobbies. I guess most of you have read this one: http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/d.....report.pdf
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“Too bad that the CRUTape letters and HSI are now bestsellers.”
Checkzor. Too bad indeed – especially because it continues to lock in the meme that if the hockey stick is wrong then AGW is wrong. Can I ask, if there was a book (or blog) that did a take down, with verifiable way to check the truth, would you read it? Would it change your estimation of Mann?
On the subject of sustainable energy, have you had a look at “Sustainable Energy – without the hot air” from MacKay? The UK situation is the one mostly discussed. I hope your reading list also includes some books on science written by scientists in the field.
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That ‘new to denialism’ link was fascinating.
I think the descriptor ‘organic spambot’ seems apt – but does anyone know if this happens in the other direction? I’m genuinely curious – do deniosphere blogs get similar treatment from warmist trolls? I’d tend to assume the incidence was much lower, but maybe I’m wrong – I’m sure if such a phenomenon exist whoever is playing ‘Doctor Checkzor’ today will be able to locate a few links to it in the cut-and-paste library!
As for the ‘massive economic harm’ argument: one, I doubt it; two, we’re going to have to make the transition one day anyway; three, I don’t buy Bjorn Lomborg’s insanely reckless and ahistoric ‘if we carry on with business as usual we’ll all be so rich in the future each Bangledeshi will be able to afford their own personal seawall’ argument (yes, this is a parody, but it’s essentially accurate); four, lots of energy efficiency strategies have a negative cost or short pay-back period; five, if you want to talk about massive disruption and human misery let’s consider a world with 450ppm+!
Overall the (inherently dubious) argument that the poor – often a fairly new target for concern for much of the Right – are going to freeze in their beds due to higher electricity costs rather assumes we’re going to stand by and let them! Us interventionists don’t believe in leaving the market to do its work for good or ill, remember?
It reminds me of nuclear advocate Sir Ernest Titterton’s assertion that the efficiency of PV and solar hot water in Australia would be severely impaired over time due to dust build up on the panels; what he failed to mention is that one might sweep or rinse it off! (Brian Martin ‘Nuclear Knights 1980 p25)
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