It’s official. ACT is the party of climate denial. Not only have they been endorsed by the NZ C”S”C for their rejection of the ETS, but Rodney Hide has confirmed his status as a full-blown crank in an astonishing speech to the ACT Upper South Regional Conference in Christchurch on Sunday. The errors he makes and the ignorance he displays are so egregious that the speech amounts to a public suicide note from a politician with aspirations to a role in governing this country.
Here’s the relevant passage from Hide’s speech, annotated by me to highlight his deliberate mistakes:
A warmer climate with more CO2 in the atmosphere is an unambiguous benefit to New Zealand and to the world[1]. I don’t know what we are scared of[2]. A New Zealand that was one or two degrees warmer would be a better place to live and better environment for agriculture[3]. The same is true for CO2. We pump the stuff into our greenhouses to stimulate plant growth. It’s the number one nutrient with carbon through photosynthesis being the source of all life[4].
[1] Unambiguous benefit? An astonishing assertion in the face of the evidence – the whole of the Working Group 2 report from the IPCC AR4 would suggest otherwise.
[2] Argument from ignorance. Hide hasn’t read AR4, so the evidence doesn’t exist.
[3] Wrong. While gentle warming will bring some benefits to agriculture in some areas (Southland, Westland), increasing drought on the East Coast of both islands will bring huge challenges to our agriculture. Hide clearly hasn’t read the latest MfE advice to local government, which includes details of what NZ can expect. He could perhaps look at my contribution to the current issue of NZ Geo – it’s easier to read.
[4] Carbon dioxide is not now, nor has it ever been, the “number one nutrient” for plant growth. An astonishing mistake for a self-proclaimed “environmental scientist” to make.
New Zealanders who can afford it go to the Gold Coast for their holidays, not Invercargill. We would like it to be warmer. It seems strange to me that we are rushing to try to stop something that I can’t see as bad[5].
[5] Again, the argument from ignorance. The fact that Hide can’t see it as bad is a result of his refusal to be informed, or his rejection of the evidence.
The changes we are talking about are small[6]. The IPCC’s best estimate through their computer generated scenarios has the world two to four degrees warmer[7] by century’s end and the sea level 20-60cms higher[8]. That’s hardly catastrophic[9]. Indeed, dragging New Zealand temperature-wise closer to the Australia would be a good thing.
[6] The changes are anything but small. The numbers may look small, but the impacts are huge. The difference in global average temperature between the depths of an ice age and a warm interglacial is only about 5ºC.
[7] Hide is happy to contemplate allowing the global average temperature to soar well above any period in the last 4 million years – perhaps for 40 million years.
[8] Hide uses the lowest of the IPCC’s figures, which specifically exclude increasing contributions from ice sheet melt – an increase that is being observed.
[9] Tell that to the hundreds of millions of people who live in the Asian megadeltas (think Bangladesh) who would find a 60cm rise flooding huge tracts of land.
The world was warmer than today during the Medieval Warm Period, a time when civilisations flourished, the Vikings settled Greenland, the Polynesians explored the Pacific, and Maori sailed to New Zealand[10].
[10] Flat out wrong. Sounds like Hide’s been getting his speeches written by the cranks at the NZ C”S”C, because this has been known to be untrue for at least ten years.
We should remind ourselves too that while these scenarios are generated by scientists they themselves are not science[11]. They are projections based on computer models. They are educated guesses, not science[12]. Science is about theories and the testing of theories against the facts[13]. It’s not lab coats, high speed computers and committees of wise people.
[11] The models used are certainly scientific, and the process of using the models is equally a matter of science. The projections they produce are the best that science can muster at the moment.
[12] The observations of warming are unequivocal, the rise in greenhouse gases undeniable, and their source uncontestable. For the planet not to warm in the future would require a complete re-write of the laws of physics.
[13] Which is of course what climate scientists have been doing all along.
I remain sceptical that we know what the weather will be in a hundred years[14]. I remain sceptical that greenhouse gases are the cause of a global warming. That’s because of the facts[15].
[14] Nobody claims to know about weather in a century’s time, but we have a reasonable idea what climate might be like if we fail to restrain greenhouse gas emissions.
[15] No, that’s because you choose to ignore the facts. See 12 above. The radiation physics is not in any doubt – except perhaps by the lunatic fringe.
During the past 100 years there were periods, such as 1940 – 1975, when temperatures fell, even though CO2 levels increased. All official measures of global temperature show that temperature peaked in 1998 and has been declining since at least 2002, and this is in the face of an almost five percent increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide since 1998[16].
[16] Standard crank talking point. Requires statistical naivety, and ignores the facts. Simple truth? The last ten years have been warmer than the preceding decade.
The facts don’t fit the theory[17].
[17] If you get both your facts and the theory wrong, that’s hardly surprising.
These are not easy mistakes to make. They are a catechism of sceptic talking points, packaged to justify the political point Hide and his party want to make. Hide can’t plead ignorance – he described himself as the “only environmental scientist” taking part in last week’s ETS debate. He has clearly calculated that he can get away with this in his target market during the run-up to the election. He must believe that there’s enough uncertainty around for him to be able to get away with this sceptic stance in the wider community.
Here’s the bad news, Rodney. There is no doubt that you are wrong. There can be little doubt that you know that you’re wrong. You are – in essence – knowingly telling lies in support of your political position, and that makes you unfit to play any role in the governance of this nation. I can only hope that the voters in your constituency judge you on your words and wisdom and not on your carefully concocted image, because if they do, you will be unelectable.
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I, for one, am interested , please (enquiries@predictweather.com)
“how to manage water in a dry continent that may be moving into a long dry period..”
Actually Australia is more likely to be moving into a wet period over the next two years as solar Cycle 24 picks up speeed. Cycle 24 should peak in 2011. 1999/2000 were rather wetter years and in most cases the cycle is roughly the lunar 9 years , for both droughts and floods.
Ken Ring
http://www.predictweather.com
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Ken,
Is that really the best you can do for ‘evidence’? If you thought it was going to induce a sudden epiphany in me .. “Oh! Ken was right all along!” – you are sadly mistaken.
I would have been much more impressed if your explanation had been drawn from standard physics or chemistry. Instead we get ideologically-motivated pseudoscience.
Ken, you don’t seem to feel any obligation to acquaint yourself with the standard body of knowledge on climate science – such as the IPCC report – so why do you expect me to feel any obligation to comb through this stuff?
I did read it quickly, and I found it to be full of tired, discredited and outdated myths. Some of it is laughable. The first extract is too pathetic to be worth commenting on. As for the second one, TJ Nelson refers disparagingly to ‘hard science journals’ – well, sorry, TJ Nelson, but they’re the sort I put my trust in. He/she also contends that the half-life of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is 5 to 10 years, and quotes a study from 1979 in support! This is almost 30 years old! Sorry, Ken, but I went to a talk by Martin Manning recently, and the science has moved on. Don’t you think you should upskill and update yourself a bit?
But the main problem is that you contended that the atmosphere could become saturated with carbon dioxide. Well, sorry, but I couldn’t find anything in these references that support this statement. And before you throw a tantrum about being misquoted, you said in post 462
“that CO2 100% saturates air at only 10C . The air simply holds no more CO2 after that relative coolness and so the excess CO2 just drops back into the ocean, yes, drops, because CO2 is nearly twice as heavy as air”.
I was – naturally – curious about how this could be true. And I still am.
Now, I do have work to do, so goodbye for a while.
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>Ken, you don’t seem to feel any obligation to acquaint yourself with the standard body of knowledge on climate science – such as the IPCC report – so why do you expect me to feel any obligation to comb through this stuff?
The IPCC reports are not any standard body of knowledge on climate science. They are simply selected bits of scientific, and some pseudo-scientific, reports carefully massaged by bureaucrats to convey an approved message.
When are you going to tell us how you manage to find some correlation between CO2 and temperature as shown in the graphs provided by your AGW gurus?
As for Manning, what is he paid for?
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Roger, can we agree on what consitutes reliable knowledge?
For me it is peer-reviewed science. This process is robust and self-correcting, and leads to an agreed-upon body of knowledge that is a foundation to be built on. What is it for you? (and please, I am looking for a thoughtful reply, not a cheap shot).
Can you help shed any light on Ken’s assertion that the atmosphere can become saturated with CO2, such that the excess just ‘drops out’?
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The density of carbon dioxide is about 1.5 times that of air. I am unsure how you can claim that it is twice as heavy as air.
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Carol predictably offers no counter evidence, just desperate alarmist bluster and a reverting back to the IPCC politicians, as if they ever knew anything about science in the first place. The IPCC has been so discredited by its former science reviewers, two of which reside in NZ and are now ardent skeptics, as to be laughable if not so sad. These politicians have hijacked what was once called science and almost sunk it without trace.
Tushara
It is possible to talk about the molecular weight of air (29) at the same time as talk about the milecular weight of CO2(44) or even the MW of carbon on its own. Chemists do it all the time. Look it up. You can get a cup of CO2 and also get a cup of air and you can weigh both comparatively, no problem.
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Ken, my main point was that you didn’t produce any evidence in support of your assertion that the atmosphere could be saturated with CO2. I’m still waiting. Just like I’m still waiting for you to produce that retraction from Rowland.
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Further to Tushara’s query
The cup of air will have only an infinitesmal trace of CO2, 3 parts per 10,000. It will be 99% CO2-free. Statistically rounded off, in this case you will be comparing weights of CO2 to CO2-free air, arguably a valid comparison.
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I am a chemist, (BSc) . I also know that 29 * 2 = 58 and 44 / 2 = 22.
This is not twice as much, but 1.5 as much. I think your maths is a bit off here.
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Carol
Obviously nothing will convince you. I have supplied two science linksand their extracts, setting out in plain English the saturation figures. You chose by your own admission not to read them thoroughly, claiming that because they countered the IPCC claims they must therefore be wrong. Very scientific of you.
The one piece of hopeful news was “I have work to do, so goodbye for a while.” Seems this was shortlived – I observed 19 minutes between your posts of 502 and 504.
Ken Ring
http://www.predictweather.com
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Tushara
Ah, if you were a mathematician you would know that 1.5 rounds off to 2. So, red herrings aside, you don’t now deny that CO2 is heavier than air? Or you do – which is it?
Ken
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“The cup of air will have only an infinitesmal trace of CO2, 3 parts per 10,000. It will be 99% CO2-free. Statistically rounded off, in this case you will be comparing weights of CO2 to CO2-free air, arguably a valid comparison.” (
Of course you can compare CO2 to dry air. You cannot exclude CO2 from air, no matter if it is infinitesimal. Its molecular weight is around 0.016 (out of the 29 molecular mass of air).
What is your point here?
My point is that you are incorrect to say the CO2 is twice as heavier of air.
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Carol Stewart 10.15.08 at 10:44 am
>Roger, can we agree on what consitutes reliable knowledge?
For me it is peer-reviewed science. This process is robust and self-correcting, and leads to an agreed-upon body of knowledge that is a foundation to be built on.
In principle, yes. However it is necessary that the peer review is real peer review and not just Mann style peer review in which a handful of individuals have a cosy agreement to rubber stamp each others’ papers. A similar process occurs with Wikipedia in which one ‘Stoat’ Connolley, who is one of the Mann clique, has control of all the Wikipedia articles on climate. The way in which he has done this has been described to me by a Wikipedia fisheries editor who has taken no side whatever on AGW. The publish or perish culture has been around in academic circles for as long as I can remember and doubtless long before that. That puts much pressure on researchers to conform. Then we have the pressure applied through grants. Are you naive enough to believe that a junior academic in VUW, for example, is going to get a grant for a line of research which might throw doubt on the position taken by Manning and Barratt?
>Can you help shed any light on Ken’s assertion that the atmosphere can become saturated with CO2, such that the excess just ‘drops out’?
My enquiries lead me to suspect that Ken Ring is barking up the wrong tree in THIS instance. I am however generally aware that there is persuasive argument supporting a logarithmic relationship between the carbon dioxide tenor in the atmosphere and the heating resulting from it. The effect of this is an approximation to Ken Ring’s assertion that there is a saturation level. However there are other areas where my interests and experience are better applied. For example I have devoted quite a lot of time to groundwater models and geophysical models. There keep me mindful of what is known in geoelectrical sounding as ‘the principle of equivalence’. Firstly more mathematical modelling there MUST be equations which FULLY describe that which is being modelled. This applies in the case of groundwater, geoelectric sounding and seismic refraction, all of which I am sufficiently familiar with. The more layers in the ground or the more anisotropic the permeability is the more solutions will fit the available data. In comparison with climate models the ones I have described have relatively few variables and the mathematics is fully understood.
In the case of climate models many of the variables and feedbacks are unknown and most cannot be reduced to equations which can be inserted in the algorithm which forms the core of the numerical model. I concede that there are physical climatic processes which can be described mathematically and which can be used in algorithms. However since climate is not driven solely by these describable physical processes the climatic models constructed on them are and must be inherently faulty.
When I observe that the climate does not correlate with CO2 and the models fail to predict the climate my belief in the inherent faults in climatic models is re-inforced.
Of course the whole AGW thing conflicts totally with my long term geological perspective of climate change.
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But Ken, seriously, and just leaving out the gratuitous abuse for a minute, you specifically said that the atmosphere could be saturated with CO2, such that the excess would drop out, and so therefore you can only reach a maximum level in the atmosphere (I think you said in the range of 300-400 ppm).
I did actually read the links you provided, and I still can’t find anywhere where this is mentioned. I did note the material on absorption, but this is a different matter to asserting that the levels of CO2 can be capped in the atmosphere.
I am genuinely curious how you think the atmosphere can be saturated with carbon dioxide, and I would appreciate it if you could find the specific place where this is mentioned.
Does anyone else have an opinion on this?
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Thank you, Roger. I appreciate your response.
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Rounding off? If you were a chemist, you would not round off; you would know that rounding off always leads to the loss of numeric information.
If you go down this path, you end up getting things wrong. You should do a basic analytical chemistry course, then you can improve your understanding of chemistry.
CO2 is denser than dry air, this is established. However, in air, its molecular weight is 0.016. Do you disagree with this?
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As promised in my most recent post, I have started up a forum for this (and other) discussions on climate issues. Please take this debate over to the forum here.
I’m now closing comments on this post – it’s getting way too long and unwieldy. But don’t let that stop you talking…
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