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	<title>Comments on: Plows, Plagues and Petroleum</title>
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	<description>Global warming and the future of New Zealand</description>
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		<title>By: Do you feel lucky? â€” Hot Topic</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/plows-plagues-and-petroleum/comment-page-1/#comment-5621</link>
		<dc:creator>Do you feel lucky? â€” Hot Topic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 11:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] straw man above, but there is something interesting to note about the MWP and CO2. Bill Ruddiman in Plows, Plagues and Petroleum looks at &#8220;wiggles&#8221; in the CO2 record over the last 2,000 years and links them with the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] straw man above, but there is something interesting to note about the MWP and CO2. Bill Ruddiman in Plows, Plagues and Petroleum looks at &#8220;wiggles&#8221; in the CO2 record over the last 2,000 years and links them with the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Long Thaw â€” Hot Topic</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/plows-plagues-and-petroleum/comment-page-1/#comment-4406</link>
		<dc:creator>The Long Thaw â€” Hot Topic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jan 2009 21:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=991#comment-4406</guid>
		<description>[...] and appreciatively in this section, but gives reasons for doubting its conclusions. (The book was reviewed on Hot Topic [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and appreciatively in this section, but gives reasons for doubting its conclusions. (The book was reviewed on Hot Topic [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John Mashey</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/plows-plagues-and-petroleum/comment-page-1/#comment-4372</link>
		<dc:creator>John Mashey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 06:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=991#comment-4372</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s possible that Bill may have been taking Lomborg at face value, and from PPP, we know Bill is especially concerned about water (I live in CA, I am too), but I suspect something else is going on with Lomborg, although it has taken me a while to articulate it.  See &lt;a href=&quot;http://thingsbreak.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/lomborg-long-game/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ThingsBreak&lt;/a&gt; for a discussions of sophisticated misdirection arguments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s possible that Bill may have been taking Lomborg at face value, and from PPP, we know Bill is especially concerned about water (I live in CA, I am too), but I suspect something else is going on with Lomborg, although it has taken me a while to articulate it.  See <a href="http://thingsbreak.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/lomborg-long-game/" rel="nofollow">ThingsBreak</a> for a discussions of sophisticated misdirection arguments.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan Walker</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/plows-plagues-and-petroleum/comment-page-1/#comment-4371</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan Walker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 04:31:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=991#comment-4371</guid>
		<description>I have had my attention drawn to a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.atmos.washington.edu/2008Q2/111/Readings/Ruddiman2008_Lomborg_review.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;review&lt;/a&gt;  of Bjorn Lomborgâ€™s book Cool It which Ruddiman wrote for the journal Science in 2008. I was unaware of it. He was generally appreciative of Lomborg&#039;s book, albeit not uncritical, and reading his review has helped me understand why it might be that Plows, Plagues and Petroleum relegates climate change mitigation to a secondary rank behind other environmental concerns.

Lomborg argues that we should spend relatively small amounts of money now on measures which improve global standards of living and the environment rather than commit larger amounts to reducing carbon emissions to reduce future global warming. He is also doubtful that people are willing to sacrifice now for the good of future generations, a theme which Ruddiman echoes in his book when he speaks of draconian sacrifices that almost everyone would find intolerable.  In his review Ruddiman claims that Lomborgâ€™s recommendations dovetail with most economic models, which indicate that the most cost-effective way of dealing with global warming is to spend modest amounts reducing carbon emissions now and then ramp up expenditures later, when global wealth is greater. 

I am unimpressed by the kind of economic reasoning Lomborg represents. It doesnâ€™t face up to the full seriousness of  global warming but atttempts to subsume it under an overarching economic theory. The matter is too serious for that. We are under a moral obligation to do whatever it costs to address the problem while it may still be manageable, and this doesnâ€™t mean ignoring other pressing environmental matters.  In any case the costs of action now may be nowhere near as large as some claim. Economist Jeffrey Sachs in his book Commonwealth, for example, seems to me to be a much more reliable guide than Lomborg. In his view modest investments will do what is required â€“ he estimates well under one percent of annual world income to convert to a sustainable energy system, less than one tenth of one percent of the annual income of rich countries to slow the runaway population growth in the poorest countries, and less than one percent to finance the crucial investments needed in the poorest countries to extricate them from the poverty trap. He sees a huge imbalance between the modest costs of action and the huge costs of inaction. 

I remain interested in the science that Ruddiman proposes in his book, but at variance with his final chapters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have had my attention drawn to a <a href="http://www.atmos.washington.edu/2008Q2/111/Readings/Ruddiman2008_Lomborg_review.pdf" rel="nofollow">review</a>  of Bjorn Lomborgâ€™s book Cool It which Ruddiman wrote for the journal Science in 2008. I was unaware of it. He was generally appreciative of Lomborg&#8217;s book, albeit not uncritical, and reading his review has helped me understand why it might be that Plows, Plagues and Petroleum relegates climate change mitigation to a secondary rank behind other environmental concerns.</p>
<p>Lomborg argues that we should spend relatively small amounts of money now on measures which improve global standards of living and the environment rather than commit larger amounts to reducing carbon emissions to reduce future global warming. He is also doubtful that people are willing to sacrifice now for the good of future generations, a theme which Ruddiman echoes in his book when he speaks of draconian sacrifices that almost everyone would find intolerable.  In his review Ruddiman claims that Lomborgâ€™s recommendations dovetail with most economic models, which indicate that the most cost-effective way of dealing with global warming is to spend modest amounts reducing carbon emissions now and then ramp up expenditures later, when global wealth is greater. </p>
<p>I am unimpressed by the kind of economic reasoning Lomborg represents. It doesnâ€™t face up to the full seriousness of  global warming but atttempts to subsume it under an overarching economic theory. The matter is too serious for that. We are under a moral obligation to do whatever it costs to address the problem while it may still be manageable, and this doesnâ€™t mean ignoring other pressing environmental matters.  In any case the costs of action now may be nowhere near as large as some claim. Economist Jeffrey Sachs in his book Commonwealth, for example, seems to me to be a much more reliable guide than Lomborg. In his view modest investments will do what is required â€“ he estimates well under one percent of annual world income to convert to a sustainable energy system, less than one tenth of one percent of the annual income of rich countries to slow the runaway population growth in the poorest countries, and less than one percent to finance the crucial investments needed in the poorest countries to extricate them from the poverty trap. He sees a huge imbalance between the modest costs of action and the huge costs of inaction. </p>
<p>I remain interested in the science that Ruddiman proposes in his book, but at variance with his final chapters.</p>
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		<title>By: John Mashey</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/plows-plagues-and-petroleum/comment-page-1/#comment-4337</link>
		<dc:creator>John Mashey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 03:35:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=991#comment-4337</guid>
		<description>Bryan:
so, let me get out of the way.
Send Bill an email asking him if he is willing to clarify his comments on this.  See &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.evsc.virginia.edu/faculty/ruddiman-william-f/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;webpage&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bryan:<br />
so, let me get out of the way.<br />
Send Bill an email asking him if he is willing to clarify his comments on this.  See <a href="http://www.evsc.virginia.edu/faculty/ruddiman-william-f/" rel="nofollow">webpage</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew W</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/plows-plagues-and-petroleum/comment-page-1/#comment-4327</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:41:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=991#comment-4327</guid>
		<description>Clearly Ruddiman  is a genius whose understanding of the world is unswayed by ideological bias.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clearly Ruddiman  is a genius whose understanding of the world is unswayed by ideological bias.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan Walker</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/plows-plagues-and-petroleum/comment-page-1/#comment-4326</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan Walker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 03:06:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=991#comment-4326</guid>
		<description>John, I have already reread chapters 18 and 19 several times! I agree with you that it is pretty clear that he finds most fault with the denialists.  If he and you are thinking of global warming exaggerations that can appear in the popular press I have no problem with that (though in this country it is just as likely to be false comfort from contrarians that gets press space).  It was the possibility that he may have been referring to campaigning organisations like Greenpeace or WWF that bothered me.  I rather wish he hadnâ€™t written his epilogue, for I found the rest of the book a very interesting read.  My own solution to the disquiet he occasioned is to reflect that as a scientist he should be attended to for his science, but not necessarily taken too seriously for other opinions.  I entirely agree with you that we have to solve all the issues, and that they are intermingled.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, I have already reread chapters 18 and 19 several times! I agree with you that it is pretty clear that he finds most fault with the denialists.  If he and you are thinking of global warming exaggerations that can appear in the popular press I have no problem with that (though in this country it is just as likely to be false comfort from contrarians that gets press space).  It was the possibility that he may have been referring to campaigning organisations like Greenpeace or WWF that bothered me.  I rather wish he hadnâ€™t written his epilogue, for I found the rest of the book a very interesting read.  My own solution to the disquiet he occasioned is to reflect that as a scientist he should be attended to for his science, but not necessarily taken too seriously for other opinions.  I entirely agree with you that we have to solve all the issues, and that they are intermingled.</p>
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		<title>By: John Mashey</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/plows-plagues-and-petroleum/comment-page-1/#comment-4325</link>
		<dc:creator>John Mashey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 00:42:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=991#comment-4325</guid>
		<description>Steve: I don&#039;t know Ed Ring, but EcoWorld looks like an unusual mix of things, including &lt;a href=&quot;http://ecoworld.com/blog/2008/10/23/green-endorsing-mccain/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Endorsing McCain&lt;/a&gt;. I&#039;m not sure how close his connections are to SV VCs, I think he conference was really AlwaysOn&#039;s, and I think he&#039;s based in Sacramento.

At first blush, it looks like EcoWorld is designed to appeal to businesspeople who want to feel green, but it certainly has the strangest mix of ads I&#039;ve seen in one place.

Bryan:
You might want to reread PPP Chapters 18 and 19. The book&#039;s focus is *not* on future climate change issues and current politics: he avoided mentioning anybody on any side, although he certainly knows some personally. He mentioned a few specific issues (without names), but I think it&#039;s pretty clear which extreme he thinks is causing the real trouble.  Like many scientists, his primary focus is *not* fighting the PR battles.  [You can argue whether or not more scientists should, but I&#039;d just observe that most scientists do science to do science, and the Little Ice Age is about as close to the present as Ruddiman&#039;s research has gotten.]

Many scientists I&#039;ve met:
a) Think we have Real Big Problems and
b) That the exaggerations that have popped up, often via the popular press (or at least one movie), simply make it harder for scientists to communicate their best understandings, and offer openings for denialists to cast doubt.  You should hear Stephen Schneider talk wryly about the way the somewhat-speculative paper by him &amp; Rasool turned into &quot;imminent ice age&quot; in the popular press.

Of course, even pretty reasonable people make mistakes.  For instance, &quot;Beating the Heat&quot;, by John J. Berger, 2000, is generally good, but it opens with a description of flying around the Arctic in 2100, including:
&quot;You search in vain for the seals, walrus, and penguins that used to live there in large numbers.&quot;

*penguins*? 
Here&#039;s a book written by a smart, good guy, with blurbs from John Adams (NRDC), Lester Brown (Worldwatch Institute) for example. It&#039;s really painful to see something where you basically agree with almost everything, and then you see a careless exaggeration that damages credibility.

I don&#039;t think Ruddiman is *unconcerned* about climate change, but again, that wasn&#039;t the focus of the book.  He is certainly worried about the *other* problems (chapter 19) that he thinks are more immediate, and that is a reasonable view, and I even agree with it, in the following sense:

- Peak Oil, topsoil depletion, and water problems are like a heart attack that will weaken you badly in 30 years, and any children will inherit the weakness.

- Global warming is like lung cancer that will kill you slowly over the centuries after the heart attack, also exacerbating the heart problems. Your descendants will inherit this one for many generations.

Fortunately, at least part of the common solution is to STOP SMOKING, but the complexity of the issue is that we have to solve *all* these issues.  The water issue is already bad enough *without* AGW, for example, but I can&#039;t think of water solutions that don&#039;t involve energy&amp;AGW solutions as well in the long term.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve: I don&#8217;t know Ed Ring, but EcoWorld looks like an unusual mix of things, including <a href="http://ecoworld.com/blog/2008/10/23/green-endorsing-mccain/" rel="nofollow">Endorsing McCain</a>. I&#8217;m not sure how close his connections are to SV VCs, I think he conference was really AlwaysOn&#8217;s, and I think he&#8217;s based in Sacramento.</p>
<p>At first blush, it looks like EcoWorld is designed to appeal to businesspeople who want to feel green, but it certainly has the strangest mix of ads I&#8217;ve seen in one place.</p>
<p>Bryan:<br />
You might want to reread PPP Chapters 18 and 19. The book&#8217;s focus is *not* on future climate change issues and current politics: he avoided mentioning anybody on any side, although he certainly knows some personally. He mentioned a few specific issues (without names), but I think it&#8217;s pretty clear which extreme he thinks is causing the real trouble.  Like many scientists, his primary focus is *not* fighting the PR battles.  [You can argue whether or not more scientists should, but I'd just observe that most scientists do science to do science, and the Little Ice Age is about as close to the present as Ruddiman's research has gotten.]</p>
<p>Many scientists I&#8217;ve met:<br />
a) Think we have Real Big Problems and<br />
b) That the exaggerations that have popped up, often via the popular press (or at least one movie), simply make it harder for scientists to communicate their best understandings, and offer openings for denialists to cast doubt.  You should hear Stephen Schneider talk wryly about the way the somewhat-speculative paper by him &amp; Rasool turned into &#8220;imminent ice age&#8221; in the popular press.</p>
<p>Of course, even pretty reasonable people make mistakes.  For instance, &#8220;Beating the Heat&#8221;, by John J. Berger, 2000, is generally good, but it opens with a description of flying around the Arctic in 2100, including:<br />
&#8220;You search in vain for the seals, walrus, and penguins that used to live there in large numbers.&#8221;</p>
<p>*penguins*?<br />
Here&#8217;s a book written by a smart, good guy, with blurbs from John Adams (NRDC), Lester Brown (Worldwatch Institute) for example. It&#8217;s really painful to see something where you basically agree with almost everything, and then you see a careless exaggeration that damages credibility.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think Ruddiman is *unconcerned* about climate change, but again, that wasn&#8217;t the focus of the book.  He is certainly worried about the *other* problems (chapter 19) that he thinks are more immediate, and that is a reasonable view, and I even agree with it, in the following sense:</p>
<p>- Peak Oil, topsoil depletion, and water problems are like a heart attack that will weaken you badly in 30 years, and any children will inherit the weakness.</p>
<p>- Global warming is like lung cancer that will kill you slowly over the centuries after the heart attack, also exacerbating the heart problems. Your descendants will inherit this one for many generations.</p>
<p>Fortunately, at least part of the common solution is to STOP SMOKING, but the complexity of the issue is that we have to solve *all* these issues.  The water issue is already bad enough *without* AGW, for example, but I can&#8217;t think of water solutions that don&#8217;t involve energy&amp;AGW solutions as well in the long term.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan Walker</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/plows-plagues-and-petroleum/comment-page-1/#comment-4324</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan Walker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=991#comment-4324</guid>
		<description>John, my problem with Ruddiman&#039;s comments on environmental extremists in relation to climate change was the conjunction of his not identifying them and his not seeming greatly troubled himself by the impacts of future warming.  If he is not perturbed does that mean that he is more inclined to see extremism in anyone who is?  I found it difficult to get clarity about this from his final chapters.  He is, thankfully,  scathing of contrarian positions on global warming, but suggests that the alarmists whom he doesn&#039;t identify are almost equally guilty of playing fast and loose with the science.   I am no scientist, but I have tried hard to understand the science of climate change as presented in a considerable number of books for the general reader written either by scientists or by science journalists.  What I read I find more alarming than Ruddiman appears to and, although I would be greatly relieved to discover that after all there was no need to be unduly concerned, it seems to me that my alarm is inescapable in view of the science.   I am grateful for the work of many campaigning organisations on climate change issues.  I haven&#039;t seen much evidence that I recall of their overstating the science.  It is compelling enough as it stands.  Indeed the issue is so overwhelming that, far from exaggerating, most  campaigning groups seem to have to struggle to keep up.  There may well be some who outrun the science - but I think they need to be better identified than just referred to as &quot;environmental extremists.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, my problem with Ruddiman&#8217;s comments on environmental extremists in relation to climate change was the conjunction of his not identifying them and his not seeming greatly troubled himself by the impacts of future warming.  If he is not perturbed does that mean that he is more inclined to see extremism in anyone who is?  I found it difficult to get clarity about this from his final chapters.  He is, thankfully,  scathing of contrarian positions on global warming, but suggests that the alarmists whom he doesn&#8217;t identify are almost equally guilty of playing fast and loose with the science.   I am no scientist, but I have tried hard to understand the science of climate change as presented in a considerable number of books for the general reader written either by scientists or by science journalists.  What I read I find more alarming than Ruddiman appears to and, although I would be greatly relieved to discover that after all there was no need to be unduly concerned, it seems to me that my alarm is inescapable in view of the science.   I am grateful for the work of many campaigning organisations on climate change issues.  I haven&#8217;t seen much evidence that I recall of their overstating the science.  It is compelling enough as it stands.  Indeed the issue is so overwhelming that, far from exaggerating, most  campaigning groups seem to have to struggle to keep up.  There may well be some who outrun the science &#8211; but I think they need to be better identified than just referred to as &#8220;environmental extremists.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Bloom</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/plows-plagues-and-petroleum/comment-page-1/#comment-4323</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Bloom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 01:31:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=991#comment-4323</guid>
		<description>Gareth, I just now tried to post a longish comment (unfortunately not saved) and the blog software appeared to devour it without a trace.  Any hope?

FYI it had about a half dozen links including several &quot;nofollow&quot;s, which I  belatedly notice aren&#039;t listed as acceptable.

[Rescued. It was the number of links that did it - not the &quot;no follow&quot; term. I have the spam filter set to three max. I&#039;ll increase that, because now that I&#039;m using registration the spam&#039;s almost non-existent. For now. - GR]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gareth, I just now tried to post a longish comment (unfortunately not saved) and the blog software appeared to devour it without a trace.  Any hope?</p>
<p>FYI it had about a half dozen links including several &#8220;nofollow&#8221;s, which I  belatedly notice aren&#8217;t listed as acceptable.</p>
<p>[Rescued. It was the number of links that did it - not the "no follow" term. I have the spam filter set to three max. I'll increase that, because now that I'm using registration the spam's almost non-existent. For now. - GR]</p>
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