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	<title>Comments on: Imagining 2020: Green Crude</title>
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	<description>Global warming and the future of New Zealand</description>
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		<title>By: Phil Scadden</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/imagining-2020-green-crude/comment-page-1/#comment-10279</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Scadden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 06:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=3736#comment-10279</guid>
		<description>Can I strongly suggest you look at David MacKay&#039;s &quot;Sustainable Energy without the hot air&quot;?
http://www.withouthotair.com/

Even you generated all the electricity with fossil fuel, you STILL end up winning big time because of the efficiency of the motors. If you are looking at 25- 35kWh/person/day being spent on the fuel cost, the 1-2kWh/person/day that is the embodied energy cost of a vehicle is small by comparison. It all helps but using less fuel is more important. Algal needs CO2 enrichment to produce a lot of fuel and photosynthesis is inefficient compared to even photovoltaic and especially concentrated solar. You would less land area for the same no. of cars if you had solar generation and electric cars than you would with algal.

Again, all the figures explained in detail in MacKay&#039;s book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can I strongly suggest you look at David MacKay&#8217;s &#8220;Sustainable Energy without the hot air&#8221;?<br />
<a href="http://www.withouthotair.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.withouthotair.com/</a></p>
<p>Even you generated all the electricity with fossil fuel, you STILL end up winning big time because of the efficiency of the motors. If you are looking at 25- 35kWh/person/day being spent on the fuel cost, the 1-2kWh/person/day that is the embodied energy cost of a vehicle is small by comparison. It all helps but using less fuel is more important. Algal needs CO2 enrichment to produce a lot of fuel and photosynthesis is inefficient compared to even photovoltaic and especially concentrated solar. You would less land area for the same no. of cars if you had solar generation and electric cars than you would with algal.</p>
<p>Again, all the figures explained in detail in MacKay&#8217;s book.</p>
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		<title>By: afowl</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/imagining-2020-green-crude/comment-page-1/#comment-10278</link>
		<dc:creator>afowl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 04:19:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=3736#comment-10278</guid>
		<description>I disagree that we need to electrify transportation and move away from liquid fuels. 

An electric car needs to get electricity from somewhere, and much of the world (outside NZ) burns coal and crude oil to generate that electricity. Countries that use nuclear to generate electricity are burning a hell of lot of fuel to dig big holes in the Aussie outback and Northern Canada to mine and convert ore to fuel rods, a carbon footprint often not mentioned by nuclear energy proponents. 

I believe that electric cars will exacerbate the global warming problem. We will be using fuel to build new infrastructure to plug our cars into, burn more fuel to make electricity that we will then turn around and inefficiently try and store in a chemical battery. Not to mention the amount of fuel we will burn trying to replace the worlds fleet of cars and installing electrified rail. 

Before we take the electric car step, we need to begin generating a large proportion of our global electricity from renewable resources. NZ and Iceland already do this, but they constitute a tiny fraction of the world population.

A major step in improving fuel efficieny is in lengthening the life span of cars. A significant portion of the energy used by a vehicle is in its manufacture, assembly, and distribution. The parts in a typical car have been around the world several times before miles are put on the odometer. Consider the fuel used in the following chain, and the impact to global carbon emissions if we suddenly replaced the global car fleet with electric cars: -  the source of the ore to make the metal, the location to smelt the ore, the various countries that parts are made in, until they are assembled in yet another country, and finally shipped to the destination country.

If we could develop a carbon neutral liquid fuel ( like algae oil) and run it in existing vehicles, we would save the world a hell of a lot more energy than replacing the global car fleet. We should buy one car and retrofit it. Never replace it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree that we need to electrify transportation and move away from liquid fuels. </p>
<p>An electric car needs to get electricity from somewhere, and much of the world (outside NZ) burns coal and crude oil to generate that electricity. Countries that use nuclear to generate electricity are burning a hell of lot of fuel to dig big holes in the Aussie outback and Northern Canada to mine and convert ore to fuel rods, a carbon footprint often not mentioned by nuclear energy proponents. </p>
<p>I believe that electric cars will exacerbate the global warming problem. We will be using fuel to build new infrastructure to plug our cars into, burn more fuel to make electricity that we will then turn around and inefficiently try and store in a chemical battery. Not to mention the amount of fuel we will burn trying to replace the worlds fleet of cars and installing electrified rail. </p>
<p>Before we take the electric car step, we need to begin generating a large proportion of our global electricity from renewable resources. NZ and Iceland already do this, but they constitute a tiny fraction of the world population.</p>
<p>A major step in improving fuel efficieny is in lengthening the life span of cars. A significant portion of the energy used by a vehicle is in its manufacture, assembly, and distribution. The parts in a typical car have been around the world several times before miles are put on the odometer. Consider the fuel used in the following chain, and the impact to global carbon emissions if we suddenly replaced the global car fleet with electric cars: &#8211;  the source of the ore to make the metal, the location to smelt the ore, the various countries that parts are made in, until they are assembled in yet another country, and finally shipped to the destination country.</p>
<p>If we could develop a carbon neutral liquid fuel ( like algae oil) and run it in existing vehicles, we would save the world a hell of a lot more energy than replacing the global car fleet. We should buy one car and retrofit it. Never replace it.</p>
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		<title>By: sonofsam</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/imagining-2020-green-crude/comment-page-1/#comment-9504</link>
		<dc:creator>sonofsam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 06:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Yeah, I strongly agree that something like the Manhattan Project or the race to the Moon would probably do the trick.  For the cost of the Vietnam War, inflation adjusted, we&#039;d probably have commercially viable nuclear fusion in about the same time as the JFK inspired Moon race put a man on the Moon.  Let&#039;s do it.  All developed countries, working together, that is, not just the US.  Pete Fowler.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I strongly agree that something like the Manhattan Project or the race to the Moon would probably do the trick.  For the cost of the Vietnam War, inflation adjusted, we&#8217;d probably have commercially viable nuclear fusion in about the same time as the JFK inspired Moon race put a man on the Moon.  Let&#8217;s do it.  All developed countries, working together, that is, not just the US.  Pete Fowler.</p>
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		<title>By: sbalch</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/imagining-2020-green-crude/comment-page-1/#comment-9372</link>
		<dc:creator>sbalch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 18:28:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=3736#comment-9372</guid>
		<description>Check out greenfuel, a US company developing algae oil. It seems the main problem is how to separate out the water from the algae as the ratio is about 1,000 to 1 (in favour of water). Anything that water intensive is going to require a lot of power to extract. Thankfully there is a power plant nearby (the one supplying the CO2). For every extra barrel of traditional oil burned, I wonder if you could generate half a barrel of algae oil? Better than corn for fuel at least.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Check out greenfuel, a US company developing algae oil. It seems the main problem is how to separate out the water from the algae as the ratio is about 1,000 to 1 (in favour of water). Anything that water intensive is going to require a lot of power to extract. Thankfully there is a power plant nearby (the one supplying the CO2). For every extra barrel of traditional oil burned, I wonder if you could generate half a barrel of algae oil? Better than corn for fuel at least.</p>
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		<title>By: Kiwiiano</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/imagining-2020-green-crude/comment-page-1/#comment-9369</link>
		<dc:creator>Kiwiiano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 10:16:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=3736#comment-9369</guid>
		<description>Maybe, but according to Glen Kurtz of Valcent Vertigro, they estimate they can supply all of America&#039;s current energy demand with an area 1/10th of New Mexico (31,000km2) from algal biofuel. Now that&#039;s a lot of glasshouses, but I wonder what the current investment (including subsidies) in fossil fuel is? 
Clearly there are a lot of problems to be solved in converting algae mass into fuel, but the same applies to converting corn or switchgrass or any of the other candidates for the replacement of our rapidly depleting supplies of dino-juice.
People get very sniffy about algae as a fuel, but forget that petrol is the end-product of 150 years of development and don&#039;t forget that corn produces 18gal(US)/acre/year v&#039;s palm oil&#039;s 750gal/acre/yr v&#039;s algae&#039;s 20,000gal/acre/yr. Show me any other plant that can double it&#039;s volume in less than a day!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe, but according to Glen Kurtz of Valcent Vertigro, they estimate they can supply all of America&#8217;s current energy demand with an area 1/10th of New Mexico (31,000km2) from algal biofuel. Now that&#8217;s a lot of glasshouses, but I wonder what the current investment (including subsidies) in fossil fuel is?<br />
Clearly there are a lot of problems to be solved in converting algae mass into fuel, but the same applies to converting corn or switchgrass or any of the other candidates for the replacement of our rapidly depleting supplies of dino-juice.<br />
People get very sniffy about algae as a fuel, but forget that petrol is the end-product of 150 years of development and don&#8217;t forget that corn produces 18gal(US)/acre/year v&#8217;s palm oil&#8217;s 750gal/acre/yr v&#8217;s algae&#8217;s 20,000gal/acre/yr. Show me any other plant that can double it&#8217;s volume in less than a day!</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew W</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/imagining-2020-green-crude/comment-page-1/#comment-9364</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 08:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=3736#comment-9364</guid>
		<description>After more thought and reading  I think there may be a niche for algae biofuel production  in the effluent disposal  process, but not outside of this, and the volume of fuel produced would never be more than a tiny fraction of that which western soieties typical consume.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After more thought and reading  I think there may be a niche for algae biofuel production  in the effluent disposal  process, but not outside of this, and the volume of fuel produced would never be more than a tiny fraction of that which western soieties typical consume.</p>
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		<title>By: sonofsam</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/imagining-2020-green-crude/comment-page-1/#comment-9362</link>
		<dc:creator>sonofsam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 04:03:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=3736#comment-9362</guid>
		<description>The Israelis can answer this.  Farming ponds on unproductive desert.  Water supply?  Brackish water or untreated sewage, unfit for anything else, will do.  Pete Fowler.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Israelis can answer this.  Farming ponds on unproductive desert.  Water supply?  Brackish water or untreated sewage, unfit for anything else, will do.  Pete Fowler.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Hamilton</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/imagining-2020-green-crude/comment-page-1/#comment-9243</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Hamilton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=3736#comment-9243</guid>
		<description>Andrew
&quot; Bruce, reports like the NRCâ€™s necessarily make assumptions, two of which they may be out on are the future cost of batteries and the cost of fuel.&quot;

If faced with the choice of selecting a future scenario about personal transport in the USA, the sources I would give most credit to are the NRC, GAO, and SAE publications. 

I wouldn&#039;t trust anything on a website ( and that obviously includes my own opinions here and elsewhere ), unless it fully cited published, peer-reviewed sources that I could  check.  YMMV.
 
I&#039;d be concerned if policy was made because somebody on a website was good at English composition when expressing their views, but bereft of common sense.  

You can read the NRC report chapter-by- chapter free on the NRC site, or pay about US$30 to purchase the pdf of the full report - but a better use of your money would be a present for a loved one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew<br />
&#8221; Bruce, reports like the NRCâ€™s necessarily make assumptions, two of which they may be out on are the future cost of batteries and the cost of fuel.&#8221;</p>
<p>If faced with the choice of selecting a future scenario about personal transport in the USA, the sources I would give most credit to are the NRC, GAO, and SAE publications. </p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t trust anything on a website ( and that obviously includes my own opinions here and elsewhere ), unless it fully cited published, peer-reviewed sources that I could  check.  YMMV.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d be concerned if policy was made because somebody on a website was good at English composition when expressing their views, but bereft of common sense.  </p>
<p>You can read the NRC report chapter-by- chapter free on the NRC site, or pay about US$30 to purchase the pdf of the full report &#8211; but a better use of your money would be a present for a loved one.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew W</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/imagining-2020-green-crude/comment-page-1/#comment-9241</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:32:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=3736#comment-9241</guid>
		<description>Bruce, reports like the NRC&#039;s necessarily make assumptions, two of which they may be out on are the future cost of batteries and the cost of fuel. I was looking a site claiming the price of batteries is likely to drop from $600 to $200 over the next few years as the technology develops and production increases, and I&#039;m betting on fuel prices to again increase as demand grows over the next year or two.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce, reports like the NRC&#8217;s necessarily make assumptions, two of which they may be out on are the future cost of batteries and the cost of fuel. I was looking a site claiming the price of batteries is likely to drop from $600 to $200 over the next few years as the technology develops and production increases, and I&#8217;m betting on fuel prices to again increase as demand grows over the next year or two.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Hamilton</title>
		<link>http://hot-topic.co.nz/imagining-2020-green-crude/comment-page-1/#comment-9240</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Hamilton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:15:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=3736#comment-9240</guid>
		<description>&quot;Fully crash tested in case youâ€™re worried about people puree.&quot;

Not sure if it has actually been crash tested ( didn&#039;t read all the site ) - just simulated in software, but also in the US regulatory environment trikes are classed as bikes, so have different rules. 

Besides, it appears to be a plug in hybrid with supercapacitors, so you&#039;ll probably be dancing puree or experiencing near-instant immolation. Plug-in hybrids, according to the NRC, will not be economic for decades..  

People puree is a significant concern, as vehicles get lighter their ability to safety move past big trucks at speed without being buffeted  decreases.  A 500 kg vehicle, even with expensive protective carbon tubs, will always come off worst when trying to drive through an oncoming  50 tonne  truck. 

AFAIK, but could be wrong, our vehicle design rules haven&#039;t added anti-intrusion design requirements to trucks and trailers, so going under the wheels  will generate puree, bouncing off might be less traumatic.
 
That&#039;s why I say we have to segregate traffic of different sizes, and move heavy freight to dedicated times or roads, but preferably onto an optimised national rail + local road delivery system .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Fully crash tested in case youâ€™re worried about people puree.&#8221;</p>
<p>Not sure if it has actually been crash tested ( didn&#8217;t read all the site ) &#8211; just simulated in software, but also in the US regulatory environment trikes are classed as bikes, so have different rules. </p>
<p>Besides, it appears to be a plug in hybrid with supercapacitors, so you&#8217;ll probably be dancing puree or experiencing near-instant immolation. Plug-in hybrids, according to the NRC, will not be economic for decades..  </p>
<p>People puree is a significant concern, as vehicles get lighter their ability to safety move past big trucks at speed without being buffeted  decreases.  A 500 kg vehicle, even with expensive protective carbon tubs, will always come off worst when trying to drive through an oncoming  50 tonne  truck. </p>
<p>AFAIK, but could be wrong, our vehicle design rules haven&#8217;t added anti-intrusion design requirements to trucks and trailers, so going under the wheels  will generate puree, bouncing off might be less traumatic.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why I say we have to segregate traffic of different sizes, and move heavy freight to dedicated times or roads, but preferably onto an optimised national rail + local road delivery system .</p>
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