Comments on: ETS report: wishy-washy and a waste of time

By: National snubs Labour, buys Maori support for watered-down ETS â€” Hot Topic

National snubs Labour, buys Maori support for watered-down ETS â€” Hot Topic — Mon, 14 Sep 2009 05:52:38 +0000

[...] couple of thoughts spring to mind. The Maori Party’s support flies in the face of their minority report on the ETS Review, where they said they would prefer stronger action, not a weakening of the [...]

By: withoutyourwalls

withoutyourwalls — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 03:44:50 +0000

Thanks Logger – yea I agreee, native regeneration would be ideal. And if the price of carbon was set at $100 minimum we might see some changes by industry – unfortunately Emissions Trading is incredibly good at reducing public participation and handing control of all the important details of the policy over to the market, which of course is totally manipulated by the polluters themselves – so this wont actually ever happen. Theres no point in having a price on carbon that is so low that it just allows companies to buy cheap licences to pollute, which allows them to look like theyre doing something when theyre not.

By: Logger

Logger — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 21:46:25 +0000

True – forests don’t reduce emissions only soak them up. BUT it does start to soak up some while changes are made. It also sets a price that makes people want to change for economic reasons – if we are really serious set the price of carbon at a minimum of $100 – this will not see many big polluters do nothing for long – hit them in the pocket hard – when petrol is $3.00 litre plus people/industry will change and look for alternatives as they see the price rising forever. Many forests will end up being indigenous – not all pine by a long shot – the debit /credit rules make it attractive for native. It allows us to plant or regenerate land back to what it needs to be and keep people on the land. We find as rule for every 8 hectares of plantation you get 1 hectare of native automatically in gaps and gullies. As John McCain said in the last Presidential election – even if we end up greening a lot of land and climate change is wrong we still have a far better outcome for our children and grandchildren. The downside is pretty good.

By: withoutyourwalls

withoutyourwalls — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 07:05:53 +0000

It looks to me as though all of the above has everything to do with making it look like New Zealand is doing something on Climate Change and nothing to do with actually reducing emissions.

Our big partners are moving steadily backward on Climate Change -look at the state of the EU US and Aussie ETS’s – they’re absolutely atrocious and have led to a stifling of real debate on the issue along with the loss of various pieces of actual climate change legislation such as the U.S. EPA’s ability to regulate GHGs from coal fired power stations.

The UK has met its climate targets by doing nothing because of Kyotos trading loopholes which NZ are successfully widening right now.

The notion that Producing offset credits could be one of New Zealands biggest export industries is just disgusting; all this means is that NZ will be producing credits to keep the wheels on filthy Climate Changing industries that should be shut down immediately. Carbon Credits are just permits to pollute.

biodiversity & fauna improvement wont get any better as a result of further monoculture plantatuion forestry in NZ

Fuel prices went up in the EU ETS as quick as the emissions – companies lobbied for higher allocations of credits than they actually were emitting and were handed out millions of $ worth of credits for free – win win for the polluters and lose lose for both the consumers left thinking something is being done and for the climate itself. the same will happen in NZ.

By: Stop pandering to the modern flat earthers at The Standard

Stop pandering to the modern flat earthers at The Standard — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 03:01:29 +0000

[...] This is of course extremely conservative and doesn’t reflect the ongoing research. But the difficulty in educating politicians about how the world works means that this is a reasonable [...]

By: Logger

Logger — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:52:16 +0000

Lets me honest – ETS is about changing and people don’t like change. Some of our big trading partners are moving – see the EU now starting to charge airlines for emissions. Straight forward and no discussion – if you want to fly into the EU you either reduce emissions or pay. Seems easy to transfer this to other goods and servics coming in as well!!
I run a large forestry business and have been working with our clients all over NZ. For many hill country farmers ETS is the only hope left to save them. They have had 5 years of negative returns, have had to borrow money to live and with the credit “rules” now applying cannot afford a bad year. Unfortunately many of the rural servicing, processing compaies are heavily indebted as well – the current recipe is not producing a good cake. Interestingly the most positive people to ETS are the older farmers – they have been through the mincer and don’t want their sons and daughters doing it as well. Producing offset credits could be one of New Zealands biggest export industries. Think about it – we grow forests – all the capital is invested in NZ. We then get credits which are electronic and sell them in an electronic transaction. Tyranny of distance gone and we get soil protection, biodiversity, fauna improvement – makes NZ look very 100% pure – whoops tourism might benefit, water quality will improve and flooding costs decrease – what a cost!!. The biggest problem we have is in the top 3 inches. If we have a price cap it has to have a strict limited time (1 year) – a lot of the large energy companies I am dealing with think its a waste of time – just causes distortions. Timing – Ag is hard but need to do something – leave them at 2013 start and feather in over 30 years. Industry – it only makes up a small fraction of our emissions – start in 2011 and bring in as Aus does. Energy and Fuel – bring in July 2010. Fuel may go up 5 – 10 cents – big deal it moves more than this and we just carry on. Elecrtricity – they have the best options to change and become renewable. Higher prices do make us more efficient. Lets just do something and use it to rebrand ourselves as the current cake is looking a bit sick.

By: withoutyourwalls

withoutyourwalls — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 15:28:39 +0000

The Big Green politikal acceptance of Emissions Trading as any sort of step forward has got to be the worst thing that has ever happened to the Climate Change debate. The whole NZETS circus has been a complete waste of time and energy for anyone trying to get anywhere on Climate Change in this country and the big Green’s [First Greenpeace then the Green Party] legitimising of emissions trading as some sort of amendable way forward was and still is – a grossly irresponsible and misleading position that shows just how little faith they have in people’s ability to engage in this struggle.

Greenpeace and the Greens should have told New Zealand the truth about this when the ETS was tabled in the first place – instead they chose to use it as some sort of lens with which they could expose which parties [fonterra etc] are getting preferential treatment / insulation from climate policy, which of course did need to be done – but what a stupid trade-off [excuse the pun]. Oh and the greens got some insulation scheme that can only be afforded by people who can afford to do it anyway. Both were horrible outmanouvered and took us all with them.

Meanwhile – the entire Kyoto process is completely F*cked for the same free-market-fetish reasons. With friends like these eh?

Thereâ€™s no doubt that a global social movement with climate change as one of its central concerns is the only way to tackle human-induced climate change. But when the public looks to organisations that are up to their neck in compromise that they cant tell them the truth it makes this mammoth task even more difficult.

Climate Camp Aotearoa – Emissions Trading & Alternatives down the bottom
http://www.climatecamp.org.nz/node/30

Carbon Trading – Solution or Obstacle – Larry Lohmann
http://www.thecornerhouse.org.uk/pdf/document/Indiachapter.pdf

Emissions Trading Watchdog – Carbon Trade Watch
http://www.carbontradewatch.org