Comments on: Ethics and climate action: we’re in this together http://hot-topic.co.nz/ethics-and-climate-action-were-in-this-together/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=ethics-and-climate-action-were-in-this-together Global warming and the future of New Zealand Sat, 11 Feb 2012 09:26:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v= By: Macro http://hot-topic.co.nz/ethics-and-climate-action-were-in-this-together/comment-page-1/#comment-9634 Macro Wed, 13 Jan 2010 07:54:48 +0000 http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=3878#comment-9634 Steve just to clear up a misconception you seem to have about massive aid to 3rd world countries. In 2006 the developed world (USA) gave $500m US in Food Aid to Africa. Mainly in the form of US wheat rice and corn and $5m US in Development Aid ie new water supplies, farm technologies etc. The USA cannot give money for other countries to buy and use their own grain for famine relief - that would be to the disadvantage of US farmers! In 2002 Pres Bush gave subsidies to US grain producers that effectively bankrupted all grain farmers in Africa. US is now producing highly subsidised grain that is being dumped overseas. African Nations are prevented by the World Bank from subsidising their farmers - or no "development" loans. So the result is - a continent that has the wherewithall to actually grow its own food (there are warehouses in Ethiopia full of Ethiopian grain rotting while UN trucks, truck in grain from the USA!) is prevented from doing so by self serving 1st Nation practices. Steve just to clear up a misconception you seem to have about massive aid to 3rd world countries. In 2006 the developed world (USA) gave $500m US in Food Aid to Africa. Mainly in the form of US wheat rice and corn and $5m US in Development Aid ie new water supplies, farm technologies etc. The USA cannot give money for other countries to buy and use their own grain for famine relief – that would be to the disadvantage of US farmers! In 2002 Pres Bush gave subsidies to US grain producers that effectively bankrupted all grain farmers in Africa. US is now producing highly subsidised grain that is being dumped overseas. African Nations are prevented by the World Bank from subsidising their farmers – or no “development” loans. So the result is – a continent that has the wherewithall to actually grow its own food (there are warehouses in Ethiopia full of Ethiopian grain rotting while UN trucks, truck in grain from the USA!) is prevented from doing so by self serving 1st Nation practices.

]]> By: Bryan Walker http://hot-topic.co.nz/ethics-and-climate-action-were-in-this-together/comment-page-1/#comment-9615 Bryan Walker Wed, 13 Jan 2010 01:03:36 +0000 http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=3878#comment-9615 Steve: "Note: these are all greenie/leftie sources" I'm surprised then that you give them such credence. I'm well aware that there has been concern over the CDM process. All I said was that it had its successes, and I give weight to Stern's judgment that it "has started to build significant interest in low-carbon options in the developing world". Then you're back to scorn - "Please take 3 diastop and call me in the morning." Much easier than replying to my question. Steve:
“Note: these are all greenie/leftie sources”

I’m surprised then that you give them such credence. I’m well aware that there has been concern over the CDM process. All I said was that it had its successes, and I give weight to Stern’s judgment that it “has started to build significant interest in low-carbon options in the developing world”.

Then you’re back to scorn – “Please take 3 diastop and call me in the morning.” Much easier than replying to my question.

]]> By: Steve Wrathall http://hot-topic.co.nz/ethics-and-climate-action-were-in-this-together/comment-page-1/#comment-9612 Steve Wrathall Tue, 12 Jan 2010 23:38:23 +0000 http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=3878#comment-9612 "The Clean Development Mechanism (CDM), which is supposed to offset greenhouse gases emitted in the developed world by selling carbon credits from elsewhere, has been contaminated by gross incompetence, rule-breaking and possible fraud by companies in the developing world, according to UN paperwork, an unpublished expert report and alarming feedback from projects on the ground. " http://www.heatisonline.org/contentserver/objecthandlers/index.cfm?ID=6449&Method=Full&PageCall=&Title=CDM%20Undermined%20by%20Abuse%2C%20Fraud&Cache=False "Plantations as sinks have only one positive aspect: they portray the carbon market fraud at its worse." http://climateandcapitalism.com/?p=1068 "Increasing allegations of corruption and profiteering are raising serious questions about the UN-run carbon trading mechanism aimed at cutting pollution and rewarding clean technologies, writes Patrick McCully, executive director of US thinktank International Rivers" http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/may/21/environment.carbontrading Note: these are all greenie/leftie sources "the cosmoplitan perspective to be given a supplementary role ..." Please take 3 diastop and call me in the morning. “The Clean Development Mechanism (CDM), which is supposed to offset greenhouse gases emitted in the developed world by selling carbon credits from elsewhere, has been contaminated by gross incompetence, rule-breaking and possible fraud by companies in the developing world, according to UN paperwork, an unpublished expert report and alarming feedback from projects on the ground. ”
http://www.heatisonline.org/contentserver/objecthandlers/index.cfm?ID=6449&Method=Full&PageCall=&Title=CDM%20Undermined%20by%20Abuse%2C%20Fraud&Cache=False
“Plantations as sinks have only one positive aspect: they portray the carbon market fraud at its worse.”
http://climateandcapitalism.com/?p=1068
“Increasing allegations of corruption and profiteering are raising serious questions about the UN-run carbon trading mechanism aimed at cutting pollution and rewarding clean technologies, writes Patrick McCully, executive director of US thinktank International Rivers”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/may/21/environment.carbontrading

Note: these are all greenie/leftie sources

“the cosmoplitan perspective to be given a supplementary role …”
Please take 3 diastop and call me in the morning.

]]> By: Bryan Walker http://hot-topic.co.nz/ethics-and-climate-action-were-in-this-together/comment-page-1/#comment-9607 Bryan Walker Tue, 12 Jan 2010 20:48:35 +0000 http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=3878#comment-9607 Steve, you exaggerate wildly. Third world aid has hardly been expensive for the developed world, which for the most part has fallen well short of even the modest targets recommended. Sure, aid hasn't always achieved its aims, but that is sometimes as much the fault of donors as of the recipient countries. Well-targeted and in close co-operation with the communities receiving aid has often proved its usefulness. The Clean Development Mechanism which you describe as an opportunity for sticky fingers has its successes. The new bus <a href = "http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1952548/can_bogotas_clean_bus_system_be_replicated.html?cat=3" rel="nofollow"> system </a> in Bogota is surely one. Nicholas Stern in <a href = "http://hot-topic.co.nz/blueprint-for-a-global-deal/" rel="nofollow"> The Global Deal </a> argues for the expansion of the scheme to enable it to generate and obsorb larger financial and technological flows. He'd like to see it move from a project-based system to a more wholesale approach - with appropriate benchmarks. Stern is not an economic innocent. On your final point of giving up national sovereignty, Harris understands that is not likely to happen and he does not advocate world government. He is arguing for the cosmoplitan perspective to be given a supplementary role which will hopefully show us a way out of the dead ends which you rather triumphantly affirm. Would you like there to be a way out? Steve, you exaggerate wildly. Third world aid has hardly been expensive for the developed world, which for the most part has fallen well short of even the modest targets recommended. Sure, aid hasn’t always achieved its aims, but that is sometimes as much the fault of donors as of the recipient countries. Well-targeted and in close co-operation with the communities receiving aid has often proved its usefulness.

The Clean Development Mechanism which you describe as an opportunity for sticky fingers has its successes. The new bus system in Bogota is surely one. Nicholas Stern in The Global Deal argues for the expansion of the scheme to enable it to generate and obsorb larger financial and technological flows. He’d like to see it move from a project-based system to a more wholesale approach – with appropriate benchmarks. Stern is not an economic innocent.

On your final point of giving up national sovereignty, Harris understands that is not likely to happen and he does not advocate world government. He is arguing for the cosmoplitan perspective to be given a supplementary role which will hopefully show us a way out of the dead ends which you rather triumphantly affirm. Would you like there to be a way out?

]]> By: Steve Wrathall http://hot-topic.co.nz/ethics-and-climate-action-were-in-this-together/comment-page-1/#comment-9606 Steve Wrathall Tue, 12 Jan 2010 19:25:16 +0000 http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=3878#comment-9606 "There are plenty of ways of ensuring that any wealth transfers associated with climate change don’t find their destination in the bank accounts of corrupt leaders. " Pity these "ways" have proved maddeningly elusive for the last 50 years of 3rd world aid. The mind-buggeringly opaque transfers associated with the war on GHGs are already providing ample opportunities for sticky fingers e.g. the CDM. But you're right. This isssue is of lesser import than the fact that there is no way in Hades that free (or even non-free) nations will give up their national sovereignty to the freak show that turned up in Copenhagen. “There are plenty of ways of ensuring that any wealth transfers associated with climate change don’t find their destination in the bank accounts of corrupt leaders. ”

Pity these “ways” have proved maddeningly elusive for the last 50 years of 3rd world aid. The mind-buggeringly opaque transfers associated with the war on GHGs are already providing ample opportunities for sticky fingers e.g. the CDM.

But you’re right. This isssue is of lesser import than the fact that there is no way in Hades that free (or even non-free) nations will give up their national sovereignty to the freak show that turned up in Copenhagen.

]]> By: Bryan Walker http://hot-topic.co.nz/ethics-and-climate-action-were-in-this-together/comment-page-1/#comment-9603 Bryan Walker Tue, 12 Jan 2010 07:45:37 +0000 http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=3878#comment-9603 Steve, you certainly don't let yourself become involved with the nuances of any discussion. There are plenty of ways of ensuring that any wealth transfers associated with climate change don't find their destination in the bank accounts of corrupt leaders. That's a minor issue alongside the essential justice questions that exercise Harris - and that Macro's comment points to. Steve, you certainly don’t let yourself become involved with the nuances of any discussion. There are plenty of ways of ensuring that any wealth transfers associated with climate change don’t find their destination in the bank accounts of corrupt leaders. That’s a minor issue alongside the essential justice questions that exercise Harris – and that Macro’s comment points to.

]]> By: Macro http://hot-topic.co.nz/ethics-and-climate-action-were-in-this-together/comment-page-1/#comment-9602 Macro Tue, 12 Jan 2010 07:26:31 +0000 http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=3878#comment-9602 "Please explain why our sovereign rights should not limit the ability of the Mugabes, Amadinijabs and Chavezes to filch billions of “reparations” out of the pockets of citizens from free nations in the name of “climate debt”." They might legitimately claim reparations on any manner of goods, services (slaves), and minerals stolen from their borders by citizens of the your so called "free" world. But of course imperialism and conquest doesn't count. “Please explain why our sovereign rights should not limit the ability of the Mugabes, Amadinijabs and Chavezes to filch billions of “reparations” out of the pockets of citizens from free nations in the name of “climate debt”.”
They might legitimately claim reparations on any manner of goods, services (slaves), and minerals stolen from their borders by citizens of the your so called “free” world. But of course imperialism and conquest doesn’t count.

]]> By: Steve Wrathall http://hot-topic.co.nz/ethics-and-climate-action-were-in-this-together/comment-page-1/#comment-9601 Steve Wrathall Tue, 12 Jan 2010 04:03:41 +0000 http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=3878#comment-9601 "...international negotiations to tackle climate change are not working is because they have been premised on long-established norms of state sovereignty and states’ rights. " "...the concept of the sovereign state is too limiting ..." Man, you guys just give yourselves away, don't you? Please explain why our sovereign rights should not limit the ability of the Mugabes, Amadinijabs and Chavezes to filch billions of "reparations" out of the pockets of citizens from free nations in the name of "climate debt". “…international negotiations to tackle climate change are not working is because they have been premised on long-established norms of state sovereignty and states’ rights. ”
“…the concept of the sovereign state is too limiting …”

Man, you guys just give yourselves away, don’t you?

Please explain why our sovereign rights should not limit the ability of the Mugabes, Amadinijabs and Chavezes to filch billions of “reparations” out of the pockets of citizens from free nations in the name of “climate debt”.

]]> By: cindy http://hot-topic.co.nz/ethics-and-climate-action-were-in-this-together/comment-page-1/#comment-9599 cindy Mon, 11 Jan 2010 23:15:21 +0000 http://hot-topic.co.nz/?p=3878#comment-9599 yes, the lack of morals and ethics in the climate debate is definitely the problem. Common but differentiated responsibilities? For the US, read: "we'll keep saying we'll go first, but we won't. Then we'll blame China when their emissions inevitably catch up and try to make them take the same action." This successful argument was first advocated by the oil industry (ExxonMobil's Lee Raymond speech to the Asia Society, circa 1997). Regarding funding mechanisms, yes, that is the theory. But only last week the French courts ruled out Sarkozy's carbon tax because it exempted the biggest polluters (just as the EU ETS did which has caused no end of problems; just as the NZ's plans do). There's no morals or ethics in that. Until profit-driven corporations have an ethical bottom line, we can expect nothing else from their government puppets. yes, the lack of morals and ethics in the climate debate is definitely the problem.

Common but differentiated responsibilities? For the US, read: “we’ll keep saying we’ll go first, but we won’t. Then we’ll blame China when their emissions inevitably catch up and try to make them take the same action.” This successful argument was first advocated by the oil industry (ExxonMobil’s Lee Raymond speech to the Asia Society, circa 1997).

Regarding funding mechanisms, yes, that is the theory. But only last week the French courts ruled out Sarkozy’s carbon tax because it exempted the biggest polluters (just as the EU ETS did which has caused no end of problems; just as the NZ’s plans do). There’s no morals or ethics in that.

Until profit-driven corporations have an ethical bottom line, we can expect nothing else from their government puppets.

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